Arnaud de Borchgrave, United Press International

            editor-at-large, interviews Pakistan ISI Chief

            General Hamid Gul

            De Borchgrave: So who did Black Sept. 11?

            Gul: Mossad and its accomplices. The U.S. spends

            $40 billion a year on its 11 intelligence agencies.

            That's $400 billion in 10 years. Yet the Bush

            Administration says it was taken by surprise. I

            don't believe it. Within 10 minutes of the second

            twin tower being hit in the World Trade Center CNN

            said Osama bin Laden had done it. That was a

            planned piece of disinformation by the real

            perpetrators. It created an instant mindset and put

            public opinion into a trance, which prevented even

            intelligent people from thinking for themselves.

            Q: So you're already convinced bin Laden didn't do

            it?

            A: I know bin Laden and his associates. I've been

            with them here, in Europe and the Middle East. They

            are graduates of the best universities and are

            highly intelligent with impressive degrees and

            speak impeccable English. These are people who have

            rediscovered fundamental Islamic values. Many come

            from the Gulf countries where ruling royal families

            have generated hatred by the way they flout divine

            law, wasting billions on gratifying their whims,

            jetting around in large private jets by themselves,

            and sailing the Mediterranean in big private boats

            for weeks on end. Osama's best recruits come from

            feudal areas that are U.S. protectorates and where

            millions of poor people are seeking human dignity.

            I have even visited a Christian convent school in

            Murree, 60 miles from here, where my 13-year-old

            daughter is studying. The young girls there have

            told me Osama is their hero. Osama's followers

            identify with Mujahideen freedom fighters wherever

            they are defending Islam and its values.

            Q: So what makes you think Osama wasn't behind

            Sept. 11?

            A: From a cave inside a mountain or a peasant's

            hovel? Let's be serious. Osama inspires countless

            millions by standing up for Islam against American

            and Israeli imperialism. He doesn't have the means

            for such a sophisticated operation.

            Q: Why Mossad?

            A: Mossad and its American associates are the

            obvious culprits. Who benefits from the crime? The

            attacks against the twin towers started at 8:45

            a.m. and four flights are diverted from their

            assigned air space and no air traffic controller

            sounds the alarm. And no Air Force jets scramble

            until 10 a.m. That also smacks of a small scale Air

            Force rebellion, a coup against the Pentagon

            perhaps? Radars are jammed, transponders fail. No

            IFF -- friend or foe identification -- challenge.

            In Pakistan, if there is no response to IFF, jets

            are instantly scrambled and the aircraft is shot

            down with no further questions asked. This was

            clearly an inside job. Bush was afraid and rushed

            to the shelter of a nuclear bunker. He clearly

            feared a nuclear situation. Who could that have

            been? Will that also be hushed up in the

            investigation, like the Warren report after the

            Kennedy assassination?

            Q: At this point, someone might be asking what

            you've been smoking. What is Israel's interest in

            such a monstrous plot, which, of course, no one

            believes except Islamist extremists who concocted

            this piece of disinformation in the first place,

            presumably to detract from the real culprits?

            A: Jews never agreed to Bush 41 (George H.W. Bush,

            the 41st president) or 43 (his son George W. Bush,

            the 43rd president). They made sure Bush senior

            didn't get a second term. His land-for-peace

            pressure in Palestine didn't suit Israel. They were

            also against the young Bush because he was

            considered too close to oil interests and the Gulf

            countries. Bush senior and Jim Baker had raised

            $150 million for Bush junior, much of it from

            Mideast sources or their American go-betweens. Bush

            41 and Baker, as private citizens, had also

            facilitated the new strategic relationship between

            Saudi Arabia and Iran. I have this from sources in

            both countries. So clearly the prospect of a Bush

            43 was a potential danger to Israel.

            Jews were stunned by the way Bush stole the

            election in Florida. They had put big money on Al

            Gore. Israel has given its imperialist guardian

            parent opportunities to turn disaster into a

            pretext for imposing an all-encompassing military,

            political and economic agenda to further the cause

            of global capitalism. While Colin Powell is

            cautious and others are reckless and want to make

            up for their failure to defeat Saddam Hussein in

            the Gulf War 10 years ago, the global agenda is the

            same.

            Israel knows it has a short shelf-life before it is

            overwhelmed by demographics. It is a state that was

            born in terrorism that terrorized Palestinians into

            the exile of refugee camps, where they have now

            subsisted in squalid refugee camps, and is now very

            much afraid of Pakistan's nuclear capability.

            Israel has now handed the Bush family the

            opportunity it has been waiting for to consolidate

            America's imperial grip on the Gulf and acquire

            control of the Caspian basin by extending its

            military presence in Central Asia. Bush

            conveniently overlooks -- or is not told -- the

            fact that Islamic fundamentalists got their big

            boost in the modern age as CIA assets in the covert

            campaign I was also involved with to force the

            Soviets out of Afghanistan. Bush senior was vice

            president during that entire campaign. And no

            sooner did he become president on Jan. 20, 1989,

            than he summoned an inter-agency intelligence

            meeting and issued an order, among several others,

            to clip the wings of ISI (Pakistani Inter-Services

            Intelligence) that had been coordinating the entire

            operation in Afghanistan. I know this firsthand as

            I was DGISI at the time (director general, ISI).

            Q: So how do you read U.S. strategy in Pakistan?

            A: The destabilization of Pakistan is part of the

            U.S. plan because it is a Muslim nuclear state. The

            U.S. wants to isolate Pakistan from China as part

            of its containment policy. President Nixon's book

            "The Real War" said China would be the superpower

            of the 21st Century. The U.S. is also creating

            hostility between Pakistan and Afghanistan, two

            Muslim states to reverse the perception that the

            Islamic world now has its own nuclear weapons. Bush

            43 doesn't realize he is being manipulated by

            people who understand geopolitics. He is not

            leading but being led. All he can do is think in

            terms of the wanted-dead-or-alive culture, which is

            how Hollywood conditions the masses to think and

            act.

            All summer long we heard about America's shrinking

            surplus and that the Pentagon would not have

            sufficient funds to modernize for the 21st century.

            And now, all of a sudden, the Pentagon can get what

            it wants without any Democratic Party opposition.

            How very convenient! Even your cherished civil

            liberties can now be abridged with impunity to

            protect the expansion of the hegemony of

            transnational capitalism. There is now a new excuse

            to crush anti-globalization protests.

            Bush 43 follows Bush 41. Iraq was baited into the

            Kuwaiti trap when the U.S. told Saddam it was not

            interested in his inter-Arab squabbles. Two days

            later, he moved into Kuwait, which was an Iraqi

            province anyway before the British Empire decreed

            otherwise. Roosevelt baited the Pearl Harbor trap

            for the Japanese empire, which provided the pretext

            for entering World War II.

            And now the Israelis have given the U.S. the

            pretext for further expansion into an area that

            will be critical in the next 25 years - the Caspian

            basin.

            Q: Were you a fundamentalist in the days of the war

            against the Soviets in Afghanistan when you worked

            closely with the CIA?

            A: Not as much as I am today.

            Q: What turned you against America?

            A: Betrayals and broken promises and what was done

            to my army career.

            Q: And what was that?

            A: President Ishaq Khan, who succeeded Zia ul-Haq

            after his plane was blown out of the sky, wanted to

            appoint me chief of staff, the highest position in

            the Pakistani army. The U.S., which by then had

            clipped ISI's wings, also blocked my promotion by

            informing the president I was unacceptable. So I

            was moved to a corps commander position. As ISI

            director, I held the whole Mujahideen movement in

            the palm of my hands. We were all pro-American. But

            then America left us in the lurch and everything

            went to pieces, including Afghanistan.

            The U.S. pushed for a broad-based Afghan government

            of seven factions and then waved goodbye. Even in

            the best of democracies, a broad-based coalition

            does not work. So we quickly had seven jokers in

            Kabul interested in only one thing - jockeying for

            power. The gunplay quickly followed, which led to

            the creation of Taliban, the students of the

            original Mujahideen, who decided to put an end to

            it.

            Q: What happened to the 1,000 shoulder-fired

            Stinger anti-aircraft missiles that were supplied

            by president Reagan in 1986 and 87 to the

            Mujahideen, and that literally grounded the Soviet

            air force?

            A: After the Soviets pulled out, the CIA allocated

            $60 million to try to buy them back. This just

            drove the black market price up for one Stinger

            from $100,000 to $300,000. The Taliban still have

            about 250 of them for the kind of situation they

            face today against U.S. aircraft.

            Q: Is the U.S. now your enemy?

            A: Is the U.S. national interest in contradiction

            with the Muslim world? The U.S. needs oil, as do

            its European allies. You have between 6 and 8

            million American Muslims and their ranks are

            growing. About the same number in Europe. Israel

            aside, we are America's natural allies. Prof. Sam

            Huntington in his "Clash of Civilizations" puts

            Confucius and Judeo-Christians in one corner, and

            us in the other. His prescription is wrong but is

            being adopted by Bush 43 who has now put 60

            countries on his hit list. This is the diabolical

            school that wants to launch an anti-Muslim

            "crusade." Muslims understood what Bush meant when

            he used that word.

            We need a meeting, not a clash, of civilizations.

            We are on the brink of disaster. It is time to pull

            back from the brink and reassess before we blow

            ourselves up. The purpose of Islam is service to

            humanity. The time for like-minded people to have a

            meeting of the minds is now.

            Q: But you are against democracy, so how can there

            be a meeting of the minds?

            A: Democracy does not work. Politicians are

            constantly thinking of their next election, not the

            public good, which means, at best, constantly

            shading the truth to hide it from their

            constituents. Their pronouncements are laced with

            lies and the voters are lulled or gulled into

            believing utter nonsense. The Koran says call a

            spade a spade. It is the supreme law and tells

            right from wrong. There is no notion of "my country

            right or wrong" under divine law. The creator's

            will predominates. All if subservient to Allah's

            will and adherence to a set of basic, fundamental

            values.

            Q: So what kind of a system are you advocating?

            A: The world needs a post-modern state system.

            Right now, the nation-state and round the clock

            satellite TV lead people to imitate America's way

            of life. Which is mathematically impossible. You

            have 4 percent of the world's population consuming

            32 percent of the world's resources. The creator

            through Prophet Mohammed said equal distribution.

            Capitalism is the negation of the creator's will.

            It leads to imperialism and unilateralism.

            Q: So what does this post-modern state system look

            like?

            A: A global village under divine order, or we will

            have global bloodshed until good triumphs over

            evil. Islam encapsulates all the principal

            religions and what was handed down 1,400 years ago

            was the normal evolutionary sequel to Judaism and

            Christianity. The prophet's last sermon was a

            universal document of human rights for everyone

            that surpasses everything that came since,

            including America's declaration of independence and

            the U.N. Charter of universal rights. If you

            superimpose true secular values on true Islamic

            values, there is no difference. So surely divine

            law should supersede man-made law. Islam is

            egalitarian, tolerant and progressive. It is the

            wave of the future.

            Q: Marxism also believed that the nation-state

            would eventually wither away.

            A: Socialism jumped the rails when it was co-opted

            by the imperialist Soviet state. Islam believes in

            dynamism, Christianity stands for static statism.

            The pope in all his pronouncements has expressed a

            dogmatic attachment to the status quo. Why are so

            many black Americans converting to Islam? Because

            they are looking for true equality which they

            cannot find under capitalism. Allah has no gender,

            neither male nor female. Islam has no indirect

            taxation in an interest-free economy. Usury was a

            Jewish concept.

            Q: Is Iran your model?

            A: There isn't a single true Islamic state in the

            world today. Iran has moved forward from its 1979

            revolution, but I am not sure whether it's the

            right direction.

            Q: And Taliban?

            A: They represent Islam in its purest form so far.

            It's a clean sheet. And they were also moving in

            the right direction when this crisis was cooked up

            by the U.S. Until Sept. 11, they had perfect law

            and order with no formal police force, only traffic

            cops without sidearms. Now, in less than two weeks,

            they have mobilized some 300,000 volunteers to

            fight American and British invaders if they come.

            Q: And your reaction to U.S. demands on Pakistan?

            A: If Pakistan gives the U.S. base rights we will

            have a national upheaval. And if the U.S. attacks

            Afghanistan, there will be a call -- a fatwa -- for

            a general jihad. All borders will then disappear

            and it will be a no-holds-barred Islamic uprising

            against Israel and American imperialism. Pakistan

            will be engulfed in the firestorm. So I can only

            hope that cooler heads will prevail in Washington.

            Q: What about the other U.S. demands?

            A: Overflight rights are meaningless since the U.S.

            violates air space daily all over the world. As for

            intelligence sharing with ISI, you can't even catch

            your own terrorists. And what ISI gives you will be

            of marginal value anyway.

            Q: President (Pervez) Musharraf has made strong

            statements supporting the U.S.

            A: He was my student in the army. He is a good man,

            but he doesn't understand Islam. The army will

            never fight the masses. If push comes to shove,

            Musharraf will say no to the Americans rather than

            turn against the people. He is not just facing a

            handful of angry people. By his own admission, it's

            10 percent to 15 percent of the population, or at

            least 10 million people willing to fight. For

            openers, they would close the port of Karachi. A

            country cannot breathe without lungs.

            Q: Back to Osama's terrorist network. Who was

            behind the bombing of the U.S. Embassies in

            Tanzania and Kenya?

            A: Mossad is strong in both countries. Remember the

            Israeli operation to free hostages in Entebbe

            (Uganda)? Both Kenya and Tanzania were part of the

            logistical tail. A so-called associate of Osama was

            framed at Karachi airport. The incidents took place

            on Aug. 8, 1999, and on the 10th a short,

            clean-shaven man disembarks at Karachi airport and

            presents the passport of a bearded man. Not your

            passport, he was told. He then tries to bribe the

            clerk with 200 rupees. A ludicrously small sum

            given the circumstances. The clerk says no and

            turns him in and he starts singing right away. Not

            plausible. Osama has sworn to me on the Koran it

            was not him and he is truthful to a fault. Pious

            Muslims do not kill innocent civilians who included

            many Muslim victims. The passport must have been

            switched while the man was asleep on the plane in

            what has all the earmarks of a Mossad operation.

            For 10 years, the Mujahideen fought the Soviets in

            Afghanistan and not a single Soviet embassy was

            touched anywhere in the world. So this could not

            have been Osama's followers.

            Q: What if bin Laden has been lying to you and is

            guilty. Is that inconceivable?

            A: If Taliban are given irrefutable evidence of his

            guilt, I am in favor of a fair trial. In America,

            one is entitled to a jury of peers. But he has no

            American peers. The Taliban would not object, in

            the event of a prima face case, to an international

            Islamic court meeting in The Hague. They would turn

            extradite Osama to the Netherlands.